Loosening the Grip of Perfectionism with Dr. Tara Cousineau

Tati: Perfectionism is one of those things that can seem like a strength on the surface, but often masks things like fear of rejection, anxiety, and a deep exhaustion from always striving. In today’s episode, I’m joined by Dr. Tara Cousineau, a clinical psychologist and author who has worked with high achievers for over two decades.

Tara brings both clinical expertise and personal experience to this conversation as we explore what perfectionism really is, why it shows up, and how we can begin to shift out of the cycle of never feeling enough. If you’ve ever felt stuck in the pressure to perform or found it hard to rest without guilt, I know this conversation will resonate with you deeply.

Let’s get into it.

Hey everybody. So I am here with Dr. Tara Cousineau, and today we are talking about a topic that I think probably resonates with many of you, which is perfectionism. So it’s great to have you here as a guest on the podcast, Tara. Yeah, I’m happy to be here. So I, I’d love to hear from you what kind of got you into this field, I guess, or this topic of talking about perfectionism.

Tara: Yeah, well I’ve been a clinical psychologist for a really long time. I don’t even wanna say how long, but you know, a few decades and about six years ago I started, I actually was trained in my. Pre-doc and post-doc through Harvard Medical School and then left and went into private practice and did some entrepreneurial things.

And then years later after my kids went to college, I went back to Harvard to work in the counseling center. So I’ve been there six years and it was just so evident and immediately how many students were coming in really suffering with that high achieving anxiety, that perfectionism, imposter. And I was like, okay.

How can I get to more people than just one at a time? So I started running these workshops there, um, workshop series, overcoming Perfectionism through Self-Compassion. And then there was an offshoot for graduate students called Befriending the Inner Critic. Um, ’cause graduate students, you know, they have dissertations to write and, or big projects or portfolios to put together, and they were just kind of in that procrastination stuck point.

So I created these two workshop series and I’ve been running them for over five years. And at some point someone said, you know, where can I get more or Can you write this down? And I was like, okay, now it’s time to kind of put this together and put it into some sort of format to compliment what I’ve been doing.

So the book, the perfectionist dilemma is, it sort of encompasses a lot of the methods that I use in my workshops. So that’s, that’s sort of the. Straightforward side of it. The other side of it is that I am a recovering perfectionist and I’ve had to del deal with my own sort of striving compulsion, um, for really most of my adult life.

And, um, yeah, so that’s how it kind of came together.

Tati: And I’m sure there are a lot of perfectionists at Harvard, I would imagine.

Tara: Yeah. In my private practice, I mean, I work in the greater Boston area, so there are 60 colleges and universities. There are big businesses, so in prior practice it’s not even really the younger people, it’s more people across the lifespan who.

Are just really trying to do a lot. They might be managers or CEOs or working moms that are just trying to string their life together and have a lot of anxiety. So I feel like I kind of cover the, the whole age span really. I.

Tati: And can you just define for us what perfectionism is?

Tara: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve kind of come around to my own definition.

There are research-based definitions, but my definition is essentially that perfectionism is a paradox created by the need for belonging or the fear of rejection. Whichever side you wanna look at, paired with unrealistic expectations for achievement and approval that actually sap your energy. Or life force.

So I really wanted to kind of bring in the energy piece because what I see mostly is people who value excellence and strive for it. And that’s a great thing. End up exhausting themselves.

Tati: Yeah. And I, and I like how, you know, in the book you have that, and I think it ties in both of those pieces, like the perfectionism matrix.

Yeah. Uh, that it’s like the access of, like you mentioned, the need for belonging and then the energy. Can you. Describe more about, I guess, like the different types of perfectionism or how that shows up for

Tara: people. Yeah, so perfectionism is really on a spectrum and some people will just self identify as a perfectionist right off the bat, and other people have more, I.

Sort of subtle elements where they’re just really concerned about how they perform. They might be more of a people pleaser or they’re really concerned about how they sort of self present, you know, in some sort of way. So there are different flavors. But you know, the way that I’ve seen it is sort of, you know, you can strive for excellence, but if your energy is well regulated, you’re gonna be a happy achiever.

But if you are really sort of sed, you know, from your energy or you’ve kind of gone into this depletion mode, you can just really end up pretty isolated and you’ll end up on another, you know, square on the perfectionism matrix. Not to get too nerdy about it. But essentially it’s this sort of continuum.

It’s like where you are on the sort of need for belonging on one access and where your energy is. Either sort of you’re under energized or you could be over energized. Like you could think about workaholics. Like I feel like I’m mostly, we’re a workaholic and I’m just constantly going and going. That’s not good self-regulation, you know, at some point you need to kind of get to the middle.

Um, so, so perfectionism is just, it’s multifaceted, it’s multilayered. Everyone comes in with their own sort of thumbprint around, around perfectionism or the sort of the never enough. Conundrum

Tati: and I, and I think that concept of the need per or need for belonging is really interesting. Can you talk more about why that’s such a strong component of perfectionism and what that really means?

Tara: Yeah. So, you know, when people think of perfectionism, they think of sort of the typical. Person who has to present themselves as completely buttoned up, you know, tightly wound buttoned up. Everything looks pristine and perfect, and that’s just one element and that’s one manifestation of it. But most people who are seeking, you know, to be perfect or not to do anything wrong or or fearing failure, there’s really sort of an underlying layer to that, and that really is a very human and very primal need to belong.

And we don’t really necessarily look at it that way. So my simplest definition of perfectionism is that perfectionism is protection and it’s really this protection of not wanting to be left out. ’cause think about it, 10,000 years ago, if you were left out of the tribe and you’re gonna go die in the desert or in the woods somewhere, we actually really need each other.

And so a lot of the energy around perfectionism is to actually. Be valued. To be validated to, to belong.

Tati: Yeah. And I, I think that what you mentioned just now of that need for protection, so it, it sounds as though when it comes to perfectionism, we’re trying to, like, would you say it’s avoiding. Negative consequences or you know, avoiding that rejection or avoiding failure.

Tara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s what anxiety, you know, you know, part of anxiety is avoidance of some sort of unknown fear, right? Fear that something might happen in the future, or it’s remembering that something shaming happened in the past and you do not want that to happen again. So in a way, yeah, it could be, you know, sort of avoidance and it could also be this sort of like unconscious.

Strategy just to make sure that you’re part of something, you know? So it is like the same, it is all in the same bucket. I would say. It just looks a little bit different for different people, depending on their upbringing, their conditioning. And as a therapist, you know, this, there’s just so many factors involved.

Epigenetics, you know, the kind of household you grew up in, you know. I don’t know the health of your mother, you know, when you were, you know, in her womb. And there’s just so many elements that can really contribute to perfectionism. Um, I also think that a lot of perfectionists are, they’re just high, they’re highly sensitive.

I highly sensitive people.

Tati: Yeah. And I’m curious in your. Experience or if you found in the research, if there are any common threads in what kinds of experiences tend to result in people having perfectionism or, you know, ’cause sometimes I find in my clients they’ll say it’s. External pressure from like parents or coaches or, but then there’s other people who I’ll, I’ll hear will say, well, I just put all this pressure on on myself.

I’ve kind of always been this way.

Tara: Well, there are some researchers who have looked at perfectionism almost more for, from a sort of psychodynamic perspective, you know, bringing in a lot of past history. And these researchers have developed, um, the multidimensional perfectionism. Inventory and it will source subdivide people depending on how they answer these questions into categories.

And so one category is this, um. Self-oriented perfectionist, like what you just described. Like, okay, I’m the, I’m the kind of person that sets the bar for myself. Nobody else does. I’m setting, I just keep moving the, the goalposts out there. And that’s a very internally driven motivation. And then there are other oriented perfectionists, and that’s the typical, you know, the mean boss that you see in the movies.

Right? You know, is, is that. That person expects that everything in their world needs to operate in a certain way by their criteria. Um, you know, the mean bully coach kind of thing. And we have elements, uh, you know, of any of these. And then another type of perfectionism, which is socially prescribed perfectionism.

And that’s really, that sort of, well, I just call it compare and despair, where you are comparing yourself to other people in the world. And so your value is based on that external criteria. I. Then there are other people who say, well, there’s also, um, self presentation, perfectionism, you know, and that might be the person who has to be all, you know, is nice and neat and, and you know, look stellar all the time.

You know, and it’s really more about how other people perceive them. And then there, I mean, honestly, there’s perfectionism in the workplace, you know, failure, avoidance, those kinds of things. But it’s so interesting. Because I will teach these definitions ’cause they’re evidence-based. And so in my group of people, you know, if you can talk about the research, they’re like, oh, okay, this is real.

So many people say, well I don’t actually identify with any of those. You know, they’ll identify as a perfectionist and a striver, but they don’t necessarily find themselves in any one of those buckets. And I find that actually really fascinating. And so then I’m like, well, what does it look like for you?

And often this is when we kind of come back to like, what does it feel like? For you, right? Not just sort of what category you fit in, but what does it feel like to be striving all the time? And then I think that’s where most of the work is, regardless of what bucket you fit into, I.

Tati: Yeah, I think that’s a great point.

So what, what would you say, and of course it’s gonna feel different for everybody, but how would you recommend for somebody who is, maybe they, they know they’re a perfectionist, it comes out in, in their behaviors, but maybe there is, and I think this is something you pointed out in the book, that there’s this disconnect or this tendency to focus more on like.

Your mind and, uh, yeah, like thinking through everything rather than, than feeling and connecting with how you feel.

Tara: Yeah. It is so interesting. Um, and you might have this, a similar experience, a high achiever comes into, into your office and they know exactly what they wanna solve. This is their problem.

They’ve already identified it. They sit down, they’re like, okay, help me fix it. You know, and it, they’re, they’re wanting some sort of answer they might not necessarily want to do. Without knowing it, the work that actually is going to get them there. They just want the quick fix in some way. And I get it because it’s really hard to sit with discomfort or irritation or get feedback from somebody that you know, you’re a mean boss, you know, actually happens often.

Um, and. I just try to drop them into their body. Just say, okay, well tell me, I hear what you’re saying and I understand your formulation. It makes total sense. I get it. But how do you actually feel, like how do, what’s your day like? How does it feel to get up in the morning or go to work, or have to come home and do all these other things?

And then people start kind of, sort of dropping in saying, well, I’m just tense all the time. Or my partner will say that, um, I just said something offensive, or, um, I’m. Obviously irritable. Um, and then I said, well, and how does that feel for you to recognize that this is what’s happening and how, how often does it happen?

How long has this been going on? Right? And so you just try to get people to start to connect that they’re striving, they’re trying to do everything right, is actually having an effect in their body. And I do have to say, as a mindfulness teacher, I try to teach a little bit of mindfulness, but it’s not the first strategy with perfectionist because their minds are so busy that what will happen is I can lead a very simple mindfulness meditation, like three minutes, and they’re like, no, my mind’s too busy.

I can’t, I am not good at this. This is not for me. And they don’t actually give it a shot, you know? And um, and then it’s more like, okay. Let’s figure out some other things just to kind of get them connected to their bodies. I always just think like talking heads, you know, they’re all, they’re all sort of like neck up.

Um, and then I try to teach them some strategies on kind of connecting with their bodies again and. Listen. I mean, some perfect are out in there running marathons, you know, so they wouldn’t necessarily think of themselves as disconnected from their body, but their thinking and how it manifests in their body is pretty disconnected, so didn’t have to kind of work from that angle and that, that always takes a little bit of nudging, I would say.

Tati: Yeah, and I’m, I’m curious, what is an example of a practice or something that. Somebody would use to connect with

Tara: their body. Yeah. Well, so I think it depends on where their anxiety level is, to be honest with you. But let’s just take the, a counseling center, right, of high achieving students where, um, they’re coming in in a crisis, right?

They’ve missed a deadline or they have to present something and they’re having some performance anxiety. Around it. It’s very hard to talk to somebody in that state of mind, right? You can’t sort of think your way through that. So I’ll just invite them to kind of take like a few breaths and do a, a simple posture.

This comes from sort of energy medicine and energy medicine method that I know where you’re just kind of holding two acupressure points. So one, um. Is on sort of like the dimple above the elbow on one arm, and then you put your other hand, um, at your lower rib, and then you’re kind of almost like giving yourself a little bit of a self hug, but you’re actually holding these two acupressure points.

One on the ribs with one hand, and then one above the elbow and the other. And then I just start talking to them while they’re sitting in this posture. And I have to tell you, Tati, it is like within five minutes people calm down. And they’re just breathing. And then I say, okay, just switch your arms. Now just switch hand positions.

And really what we’re trying to do is them to kind of connect with the parasympathetic nervous system without having them to do any big lifting, let’s say. You know, and so that’s one way at that just to, to calm them down so that they can actually connect, you know, the emotional part of the brain with the prefrontal cortex and be able to have a thoughtful conversation.

So that’s, that’s one trick that I do with them. Um, for some people I’ll use, um, a technique. You might be familiar with it. Emotional, uh, freedom technique, which is tapping. And I’ve had so many high achievers. Who have such a hard time with self-compassion. They have a hard time with meditation, but if, when they start to do tapping it, I just have gotten so many emails where like, it’s tapping.

It works. The only thing that I’ve been doing is tapping and you know. We can link to, you know, uh, in your show notes to, you know, a, a tapping app and that sort of thing. But tapping basically is also on the acupressure points. And you know, it’s in, it’s on your hand, your head, your, your, your torso. And it gives something to do with that, that fiery energy, right?

You know, that. People might have, or if they’re really depleted, it kind of picks up the energy a little bit. So I have found that doing emotional freedom technique between sessions is really good to help people to start to regulate their parasympathetic nervous system. And with something like emotional freedom technique, it’s a little bit of exposure, right?

Because you’re saying, even though I’m really freaked out about this presentation, or even though I’ve just missed a deadline and my. PI is gonna be mad at me. I understand my feelings and I completely accept myself. So you’ve got the exposure to the negative you’re tapping so that you’re reducing that sort of limbic system response, and you’re inserting a self-compassion statement.

So I feel like it’s this little trifecta that can be super effective for people. Um, so that’s one way. And then when people start to establish an alliance and, you know, they’re like, okay, whatever Dr. Tara is doing is kind of weird, but I feel a little bit more calm, I can think a little more clearly, then I’ll probably start doing something a little bit more deeper.

Um, like internal family systems and just really trying to identify the perfectionistic part or the procrastinator part and get really curious about that. Um, so. It takes, it takes a couple of techniques I think.

Tati: Yeah. And, and one thing, ’cause I, you know, I, those techniques you shared, of course, can be very effective.

And I’m wondering, ’cause I know this used to be me, like, what would you say to the, the skeptics out there who are like, oh, this seems kind of like woo woo. Mm-hmm. Or like, what am I doing here?

Tara: Yeah. Well, I love those questions and I say, oh, I’m so glad that you brought the skeptic into the office with you.

You know, and I’ll just say, you know, this is an experiment. Give it a try. You don’t need to do anything. It’s an invitation. And we can do talk therapy for as long as we want. I mean, honestly, we can. And um, and that’s sometimes just what people need. But I do bring in, because I’m sort of a neuroscience geek that, um, you know, if somebody really wants the evidence on something like.

Emotional freedom technique. It’s like one of those second tier interventions at the Veterans Administration for people with PTSD. So if there’s anyone who’s really suffering from anxiety, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s minimum women who come back from war. Um, and for many of them, tapping has actually worked.

Um, so I’ll just send them a research page and, you know, it doesn’t happen that often, but there’s some people who, who then will really appreciate that. Same with mindfulness. I’m like, listen. I can say anything that you want about mindfulness, but there are now have been so many brain imaging studies about the positive benefits of mindfulness practice on the brain loving kindness practice.

You know, actually, you know, your gray matter thickens, which makes your brain speedier and more efficient and processing. I mean, this is. Pretty unbelievable. And then people get kind of convinced, but they still think that they can’t do it or it’s not for them. And that is actually really why I like the groups.

So in a way, the last thing a perfectionist wants to do is actually share their experience with other people. ’cause they keep things really close to the vest. But when, when I do a workshop or a group, and it could even just be like a one hour workshop that I’ve done, like with, you know. A lunch and learn at an organization or for some sort of women’s group or something.

And I’ll just do my a little mini befriending, the inner critic. And it’s actually pretty amazing when people hear each other and they’re just like, oh, wait a minute. Someone else has an internal voice. That’s that mean. Oh, okay. It’s not just me. Uh, it really is profound and, and, you know, support groups are really helpful, but in general, right, because you’re with other people.

But it’s an interesting thing, I think with people who are high achiever who don’t wanna show anybody that they might be struggling. But that’s where I feel like some of the work is. So doing something like a mindfulness meditation or practicing loving kindness and coming up with your own phrases and people are sharing the phrases that they came up with.

Uh, I believe is really transformative.

Tati: Yeah. So it sounds like it’s a way of facing that fear of like, what if people see that I’m imperfect, right. I.

Tara: Exactly. I mean, people feel like an imposter, you know, o often in, in life, you don’t have to go to Harvard or bu or Wellesley to feel like an imposter. It, it’s, it, we’re always sort of comparing ourselves and we’re always questioning like, do I deserve to be here?

And that comes from, you know, some sort of older, younger voice. Um, and when people can start talking about it, it’s, it’s so. Interesting. I’ll, I’ll give one example and maybe your listeners could relate to this. So I was doing a group recently, this is the Overcome Perfectionism group, and it’s a young woman.

She’s coming, she’s getting her master’s, um, a leadership master’s degree. Um, apparently she, she had, you know, a lovely household growing up, but really struggled, um, um, with sort of her self-esteem and this whole idea of. Uh, perfectionism as protection was really interesting to her, and she just had this memory.

She’s like, I don’t know why I’m thinking about this, but I remember in the third grade a teacher telling me, or asking me why I didn’t do better. I’m like a little math quiz.

Tati: Hmm.

Tara: Like the, you know, the teacher had this expectation, and in her small mind she thought, oh my gosh, there is something wrong with me.

I am, I’m not good enough. But she hadn’t had that memory in a really long time. And so then the work was like, oh my gosh, how interesting. You know, um, how do you feel towards that part that you recognize that, that there might be something to this? And she’s like, wow. I said, how old are you in the third grade?

And she’s just like, well, 10, like, yeah. Wow. Does it make sense that that 10-year-old thought that, yeah. Okay. Hmm. Are you bringing that 10-year-old forward in your life? Maybe so, and, and, and that was, it was very moving for her and. And I said, I think you just need to catch that part up on how far you’ve come.

You know, I mean, she’s 26 now or something like that. And she’s done these amazing things and she has a fellowship or a scholarship. And I said, I don’t think that that 10 year year old needs to get caught up a little bit on your life, and you need to kind of connect with that part of you. But she was really able to kind of make this sort of direct connection.

It wasn’t her parents ’cause she was like, you know, my parents didn’t care about my grades. They were fine with whatever I did in, in my life, but I don’t know why I get stuck on putting myself out there as a leader. So she was able to make that connection and you know, I hope that she continues the work I.

To take care of that part of herself, that it was just like a tender part, you know, that got critiqued and she really took it to heart, literally. Um, so those are the things I think that can happen in a group, and you share it with other people and somebody else will just say, oh yeah, there was this, and you start kind of connecting the dots on how that perfectionism was born, essentially.

So for this young woman, it was like, I have to do everything perfectly. I can’t make a mistake, I better get a hundred on everything that I do. Oh my God, what do I go to go through life? But many people do, you know?

Tati: Yeah. I think that’s such a relatable story and, and I think kind of highlights how we can, I think.

Internally sometimes like you’re saying, like not kind of progress past these certain beliefs about ourselves, and I find that what tends to happen with a lot of my clients and audience that, you know, there can be this continual striving for achievements and degrees or titles or income or you know, whatever external, but it doesn’t.

It still feels like it’s not enough or they’re not good enough. Or there’s, like you, you mentioned this imposter syndrome happening.

Tara: Well, I think what also happens when you have adopted this strategy, like this young woman adopted a very reasonable strategy, which is to be a straight A student and you know, and, and it costs a lot, like over time, like it’s a good strategy and it’s self-reinforcing, right?

You start getting, as you start doing well, you keep doing, wanting more. And then what happens is also your nervous system like this is going back to the body adapts. To that high level of activity and stress. Right. So if you ask someone like a perfectionist to calm down or take a nap, you know, they’ll be pissed.

They’ll be, you know, I can’t, it’s not, that’s not in their constitution. ’cause they’ve adapted to this sort of high level of stress. And at another level there are people who have just gotten so used to their high level anxiety that they don’t even know it’s anxiety anymore. And then you ask them to calm down or to take a rest or do this radical self-care and they’re like.

I can’t do that. And partly it’s ’cause they actually have to retrain their nervous system. You know, slow down in small doses, let your body adapt. Did you know it takes months and months for your body to actually let that stress cortisol expire and your nervous system’s gonna say What’s happening? You know, you gotta wrap it back up again.

Right? Because you kind of get addicted to the higher levels of stress, you know? Well, we call it stress, cortisol, but it’s cortisol, right? It’s the sugar that you need in your body to keep doing things. And we just. Become addicted to that stress.

Tati: Yeah, and, and I think it’s great how you described like connecting with your body.

You also mentioned internal family systems and I’m sure there’s many listeners who may not be aware of what that is. And you know, you mentioned like, for example the perfectionist versus the procrastinator parts. Can you talk more about that?

Tara: Yeah, so I would say, first of all, I’m IFS. Trained and informed.

I’m not certified as an IFS therapist. Um, when you get trained in this methodology, you have to go through these different levels. So I’m like that level two, it’s not that that means anything, but I just wanna just be really clear. But IFS is, is a very interesting model of understanding that we are not.

Sort of monolithic or unified. We actually have many different elements or parts. And sometimes like when I’m working with high achievers in universities, I’ll say algorithms like we, we have all these different algorithms and other therapies. We might say scripts, for example, I. We have these different parts, which is not one thing.

And when we can start to identify that a certain behavior or a certain attitude is a part of us, it starts to, um, invite curiosity. Like with this young woman, like she was completely identified with her perfectionistic self. Like she couldn’t see it necessarily as a part, but when she started to have this recollection, she could see, oh, there is.

A younger part of me. Right? So if we can start to kind of see that we have these sub personalities and these sub personalities, um, when, when they’ve suffered some sort of stress or trauma, go into these extreme roles, you know, or attitudes or, or, or behaviors as a way to cope in the moment. And you can imagine that, you know.

If you grew up in a household that was really chaotic or there was a lot of punishment, that you’re gonna figure out a strategy that is appropriate and logical for a 4-year-old, oh my gosh, I’m a bad person. There’s something wrong with me, I better be good all the time. Right? So internal family systems acknowledges that we have these different parts and the parts are kind of divided in sort of a a little bit of a.

Of a system here so that your internal system, you have to kind of see it like you’re literally like your internal family. Like imagine going to a Thanksgiving dinner. Well, you know, you’ve got sort of characters in you like that too. And um, there are manager parts, right? So perfectionists are often.

These manager parts, they’re the ones that are in control. They’re giving that sort of, you know, that public view of who you are. They do a pretty good job of it, but it takes a lot of energy, right, to do that. So that’s kind of like managing your system. And I call that your plus one. Like you’re always going around with this part.

It’s your plus one. It’s making sure that you’re presentable, you know that you’re smart and all that. Right? And that’s an inner manager part. And it’s, it’s protecting you obviously from all the things that we’re talking about, rejection, failure, that sort of thing. And then we have a, another kind of protector part, if you will, called, um, the firefighters, right?

These are like your internal emergency personnel. They’re the parts of you that when the manager’s failing in some way because it’s exhausted. Um, you might be scrolling on the internet. Watching, binging on Netflix, binging on food, sex, alcohol, any sort of numbing activity or substance is a firefighter kind of activity because it’s just trying to numb the pain.

So the, the firefighter parts are like these, I just call ’em your pain relievers and we all have them. Retail therapy, you know, it could be whatever it is. So often there is this sort of internal. Tug of war between that inner manager, the perfectionist, and sort of the number or the procrastinator, right?

Procrastination. Avoidance is numbing the pain. It’s like you do not wanna suffer the pain. And so it, so at first it’s just kind of working with these parts and identifying how hard they’re working for you. What’s the positive intention? But then you have to ask the question, well, what are these protectors?

Protecting you from while they’re protecting that wounded child, right? That 10-year-old, that third grader that just felt so ashamed, right? So the protectors are gonna do everything in their power not to, um, reveal or let this sort of exile come forward, because that would mean dealing with shame or hurt or trauma.

So, so internal family systems is a method to see like, oh, okay, we have these different elements and these different parts, and they serve a purpose even if it’s not the best strategy. Right. And when we can start to heal those parts, we can unburden them from their roles and, and really sort of get to the exile and heal that part of you, right?

You heal that part of you. It’s not the therapist healing the part of you, you’re doing the, the therapist is in IFS is sort of the facilitator, but you’re really actually doing your own work by starting to connect to, to these different elements and relieving them of their burdens. If that makes some sense.

Tati: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If you’re enjoying this conversation and you want more support to feel calm, balanced, and confident in your daily life, then I invite you to join me free at my weekly ish [email protected] slash newsletter. I share practical tips, personal insights and resources designed specifically for high achievers, managing stress and anxiety so you can feel more grounded and in control.

Again, that’s calmly coping.com/newsletter. I’d love to have you join us now back to the episode. So it sounds like you begin by identifying what role is this serving? How is this protecting me, like you were saying, and then, uh, what would you. What would healing that part then consist of,

Tara: well, I’m thinking about another woman.

So this is an older student, right? Like, I don’t know, in her forties, right? You know, not an old person, but an older student who’d made a career shift. Right? And she came to one of my, um, workshops and she couldn’t do the whole series because she’s a working mom and she’s in graduate school and she’s super, super busy.

But your typical high achiever and, um. She was actually at the same class at this as this other younger student around how perfectionism is, is protection, right? So this kind of brings in a little bit of this sort of internal family systems, like how is this part trying to help you in some way? And she didn’t show up for like three or four sessions and then she showed up and she said, you know, I can’t stop thinking about this idea that there’s this part of me and my perfectionism is trying to protect me from something and.

I realized that I’m always trying to present myself to the world as put together, buttoned up, and she goes, I stopped wearing makeup and I’ve been wearing makeup since I’ve been 14 years old, and. She felt liberated, and so I didn’t, so I’m telling you, I did no work here. I was not doing therapy, but she was able to make this connection with that her perfectionism, her outward presenting self was really trying to ensure that she wouldn’t be critiqued.

She worked in a. In a financial industry that was very brutal and everyone always had to perform and meet certain numbers and, and if you weren’t, you were ashamed. And it wasn’t really her personality to actually be in that industry, which I think is what she was realizing now and why she was changing careers.

But it reinforced this, this idea that she had developed much younger, that you always had to present yourself as looking, you know, whatever, you know, beautiful or attractive or smart. So, so she’s starting to actually to do her own healing now by her own own behavior. Now she could do probably deeper levels of work in the sort of vein of an internal family system model of really kind of going to that younger part of herself.

Um, I. That learned or was taught or caught onto this idea that if you, if you look beautiful all the time, that you will be accepted. Right? That’s probably a deeper level of work for her. Um, and to relieve that part of carrying that burden. Um, I don’t know if that answered your question, but I like to give a little, some examples sometimes.

Tati: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great example. And it, and it sounds to me like there’s some level of starting to maybe like. Be more, I’m trying to think of the way to put it, like. Being vulnerable. Or being open to being vulnerable.

Tara: Absolutely. And that’s the self-compassion piece, right? So the subtitle of my book, you know, is, you know, learn the Art of Self-Compassion, become a Happy Achiever.

My workshop is overcome perfectionism through self-compassion. ’cause we really need to draw on that inner resource of. Being kind to yourself of directing warm wishes to yourself of knowing that things are really hard, being able to validate and name that and sit with that. Um, you know, sometimes, you know, you can look at compassion or self-compassion as emotional courage, you know, to kind of, you know, ’cause the body’s gonna wanna turn away, right?

Everything in our nervous system’s gonna say, no, don’t go there. That’s too hard. That’s too painful. But self-compassion is really turning towards what is difficult. And so when we look at these elements or these parts or these conditions in which we had to constantly or chronically achieve in order to be approved or accepted by parents or teachers or the community, oh my gosh, we really need to understand that that was, that made sense, but it might not be making any more sense.

It served. Its that strategy has served its purpose. And now can we dial, can we dial it down a little bit? And self-compassion is, is a practice of which I have quite a few in the book because I feel like there’s a lot of resistance towards self-compassion. Mm-hmm. People will see it as weak or soft, and actually it’s one of the strongest inner strengths that, that someone can have.

Tati: Yeah. And, and why do you think, uh, ’cause this is something you talk about in the book that like kindness and self-compassion is so hard, particularly for perfectionists.

Tara: First of all, perfectionists, um, are trying to control everything. So they’re trying to also control their own feelings, right? And then when you’re talking about compassion or self-compassion, you actually have to address feelings, right?

So it’s hard to turn towards the, the more difficult feelings. Some people just feel like they’ll lose an edge. That’s a really common response. You know, if I’m not really hard on myself, I’m not structuring myself like this, um, I’ll be weak. I’ll make a mistake. You know, so people have a lot of reasons for not wanting to be kinder to themselves, but it doesn’t work.

It just doesn’t work, you know, and you’re just gonna have that plus one, that inner manager chronically telling you, you’re not good enough, you’re not good enough. Cracking the web and it’s gonna exhaust you. Which is actually often what will bring people. Maybe not so much younger students but them as well.

They’ll have insomnia or IBS or they’ll start to, to develop migraines. Um, you know, people who’ve lived a longer, a little bit longer might start to develop chronic pain and, you know, because the body can’t actually sustain that kind of energy. And so self-compassion is really a method to start softening in a way that’s healing versus.

Weak.

Tati: And so how would you recommend somebody with perfectionism starting to practice self-compassion?

Tara: So I have, um, one hack that I like the best, um, if people are willing to do it. So I’m gonna take the example of the young woman who was sort of shamed by the teacher in the third grade. You know, I asked her, I said, you know, do you think that you could find a photograph of yourself in the third grade?

Age 10. She’s like, yeah, I think I can, I, I think I know which one. I’m like, good. Can you make it a screensaver on your iPhone or your smartphone? And it’s the first thing that you look at every morning. I. Before you start scrolling the news or social media, people often tear up when I make the suggestion in the moment.

And um, and then in the next session they’ll say, oh, I found a photo. I’m like, great. You know, and, and it really is this sort of invitation to one, see how far you’ve come. Right. But also to really direct, kind wishes to that little kid, like, oh my God, it would, you, you, you’ve done well, you know, it’s been hard, but it’s okay to relax.

It’s okay to play. You know, I love you. Right. So that’s, I don’t even know if I actually write this one in the book, but it’s one that I often suggest to people when I feel like they’re ready because it’s such an emotional connection to your younger self.

Tati: Yeah, I think that’s an excellent suggestion and I’ve done that before, like getting a younger picture myself.

But I love the added step of like having that as your phone wallpaper. ’cause that’s something people see all the time.

Tara: Exactly. And, and you know, otherwise scrolling the news or the next email that, you know, ’cause people are addicted, perfectness are addicted to their emails and, um. You know, so it, that, that can be the first face that you look at in the morning.

Tati: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that’s excellent. And, and this is a great conversation. You know, I think you shared so much that’s so applicable and, and helpful to. People who are struggling with perfectionism and, and also what I heard from you is that like, that’s not their soul identity. Right? Right. Like they can step outside of that perfectionistic way of being and, and learn different ways of functioning.

And like you mentioned, like being a happy achiever. So what would you give like as any final words or suggestions, uh, for somebody who is struggling with perfectionism right now?

Tara: Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say it’s not your fault. I. You know, it’s a, it’s a logical behavior and attitude that arose to help you survive a difficult moment or situation in your life, and in many ways, it served you well.

You know, we’re not trying to get rid of it, but we’re just trying to dial it down a little bit so that you can strive for excellence without the suffering. Mm.

Tati: Yeah, I love that. And so you of course mentioned your book, the Perfectionist Dilemma, which I would highly recommend. And can you just share with people who want to connect with you more, who want to learn more about you, read your book, uh, how they can find you.

Tara: Yeah, well, people can, um, go to my website, um, tara au.com, T-A-R-A-C-O-U-S-I-N-E-A u.com. Um, there’s also a little mini website for my book, so if they, if you just search, um, the Perfections Dilemma book, you might actually end up on perfection dilemma.com. And on that website, if you scroll down the page, there are these sort of free, happy achiever tools.

It’s sort of a mix of, um, a little mini. Ebook and, um, some videos on some of the skills that I actually teach in the book. So you don’t even need to read the book, you can just download the skills. Um, and then I just started a new publication on Substack called the Peaceful Perfectionist, as really a way for me to keep the conversation going with people, um, around perfectionism or never enoughness or whatever is going on, and certainly self-compassion.

Tati: Excellent. Yeah, and I’ll leave links to all of those in, in the show notes as well. Yeah. That’s wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, Tara, uh, for being a guest on the podcast. It was a great conversation. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks for your questions.